The Final Rep, SPECIAL ISSUE: A Conversation with Kathrine Switzer
Chatting about the power of movement and women in sports, from 1967 to present.
Hey friends! Kicking off The Final Rep’s first special issue—aka an issue in which I get to chat with someone in the fitness biz—with Kathrine Switzer. You read her name in the Women’s History Month issue, as she’s the first ~official~ woman to run the Boston Marathon, back in 1967. (She gives a shout to the first woman to finish in the Q&A below.)
Switzer started training for the Boston Marathon in college, as a journalism student at Syracuse University (obviously we bonded over “bleeding orange”). The official rules back in 1967 didn’t say anything about gender. So, after signing her name “K.V. Switzer” on the registration form, as she always had, she got herself to the starting line, with the help of her coach and alongside her boyfriend. While everything went relatively smoothly at the start of the race, around mile four, one official tried to shove Switzer off the course, grabbing at her bib numbers. Her boyfriend ended up clocking him and they kept running. She ran right across the finish line and straight through a glass ceiling, showing the world that women can indeed run 26.2 and truly crush it. (Read all the details about that April day in Boston on Switzer’s website.)
Switzer and I caught up over Google Meet—her in Wellington, New Zealand, where she’s been living full-time during the pandemic, and me, nearly 9,000 miles away in Brooklyn, NY. We chatted about everything from why she started running and what the sport means to her (we agree it’s an excellent way to build self-esteem) to how it felt to run 26.2 in Boston again in 2017, surrounded by women. She also describes what it’s like to cross multiple marathon finish lines—Switzer ran Boston eight times, and the New York Marathon four times, winning it in 1974—and how she pushes through The Final Rep.
This powerful, personable 74-year-old seriously inspires, so read on.
The Final Rep: What kind of workouts are you doing these days? Are you still running?
Kathrine: Oh yeah. It's slightly problematic. On the 1st of January, I was in the best shape I've been in since 2017, which was when I ran the Boston marathon again, so I was really a hot ticket then. And I said to my husband, I'm ready to start planning for Tokyo now, to run the Tokyo marathon. And then I did a really stupid thing and had a bad accident. Actually, I jumped off the Wellington high dive in the Harbour as a fundraiser for my 74th birthday. But unfortunately, instead of landing straight down on my feet, I landed on my lower back and I was in bed flat on my back for three weeks. So I'm, you know, back to ground zero and I’m in physiotherapy and trying to get it back. So I'm going out for a walk in the sun and also maybe to try to jog for two minutes and see how it goes.
TFR: Oh no! Well, you were doing it for a good cause, so that's what matters.
Kathrine: I was so funny. They raised the money and I said on day three, I said, ‘I would have given up my entire pension plan and turned it into the charity rather than be lying here in bed.’ But anyway, it's okay. It’s never too late, Mallory, to grow up.
TFR: That's very true. I love that you're still doing things like that. That's amazing. So, I know you've talked a lot about your Boston marathon experience, particularly back in 1967 when you ran it for the first time. And I know you also mentioned that you signed up for it, not to prove anything, but just because you wanted to run the Boston marathon. I'm curious when you realized how impactful that day was for women and women in sports? Do you remember a specific moment where you came to that realization and what did that mean to you?
Kathrine: Yeah, I would say the realization of the importance didn't come until about midnight that night because I didn't know it was going to be any big deal. I just thought this was a crazy official who was overworked and a misogynist, and I figured, well, he's learned his lesson cause my boyfriend decked him. But that night when we stopped on the throughway, coming back from Boston to Syracuse, New York, we looked at the papers which were all over the cafe. And the pictures were just everywhere. And of course, the guys on the team just loved it. But I realized it was going to have much bigger ramifications. You could tell by the way it was positioned in the headlines. There were headlines that said chivalry is not dead. I mean, my boyfriend became the hero, not me. Other papers said, wasn't this an amazing thing that this woman ran. Other papers said it was disgraceful that this woman ran. And so, it was very polarizing. But for me, it was very contentious for a long time. And basically, I knew that it was going to change the way the situation was for women if somebody stood up and took responsibility. And I did. And so, it became my life work and then it became a career. And I invented my career in sports marketing and created a global women's running program in 27 countries, got the women's marathon in the Olympic games, and became a TV broadcaster and a writer. I mean, who would have imagined it. And it was because of a negative experience.
So, definitely, sometimes the worst things in your life can become the best, but for those early years of going up against society and showing that women deserve to run was not easy, you know? And I would say half of the population was supportive, but the other half was definitely not supportive. And the hardest thing for me was women at the time because a lot of women were very negative about it and gave me a very hard time. But as I said to my coach, even back then, I remember I was about 25. And I said, ‘They hate me now, but they're going to be my best friends when they're 40.’
TFR: What were they giving you a hard time about, specifically?
Kathrine: Oh, that I shouldn't have run. It was disgraceful. ‘You shouldn't be running with men.’ ‘You're sweating in public.’ Honestly. ‘It really is disgraceful for womanhood and besides, you might hurt yourself, you know, your uterus is going to fall out.’ ‘Your legs are going to get big.’ All of the myths just poured out. And it was sad because they were so afraid—they were afraid of something that was so good. It made you feel so great. And it was so helpful and empowering. And I knew once they started running and jogging that their lives would be changed. And so many of them came up to me years later and said, ‘you know, I thought you were the craziest person. And then I started a jogging program. I really was desperate to lose five pounds after my kid, or 20 pounds or whatever. And I started a jogging program and I not only lost the weight, my whole life changed. And I knew then why you did it and I've run my first marathon and I want to thank you so much.’ Of course, you shake hands and you say, ‘I'm so happy.’ And then, ‘I'm only sorry it took you so long, but that's okay.’
TFR: What brought you to running originally?
Kathrine: Oh, yeah, an important story. When I was 12, I wanted to be a high school cheerleader. My dad said, ‘no, you don't, you know that cheerleaders cheer for other people, you should have people cheer for you. You should go out and run a mile a day and you'd make the field hockey team in your high school.’ And this was something brand new. I mean, this is way back in the 50s and we'd never heard of field hockey. Nobody had, but we, for some reason, we had a school that had a budget for girls’ sports and they put in a field hockey team. And my dad said, ‘I know it's only about running, and I know you can run, but you have to run a mile a day. And if you did, you'd be one of the best players.’
And I did, and I did become one of the best players. But the point is that it was the mile a day that gave me the sense of empowerment and kind of a victory under my belt, nobody could take away from me. And for a 12-year-old girl, I was already a year ahead of myself and going into high school. We didn't even have intermediate schools in those days. So, here I was surrounded by these very mature kids, many of them getting married and getting jobs after they graduated, and I was still playing with dolls. So, to have my own victory and sense of self-worth was everything. And honestly, I'll tell you the truth, I've been running for 63 years and it still gives me that. When I feel something is difficult, all I have to do is go out and run. And it'll come to me.
TFR: That's awesome. That's exactly how I feel about running too. It's a definite confidence booster. And because I feel like a lot of people who want to do these things, like run marathons, they're intimidated by that, or say, a woman who is trying to break into a sort of a boys' club might not have the confidence. So I wanted to ask what gave you that drive to do these things that might be so intimidating for other people? Would you say it was running, from the start?
Kathrine: Absolutely. Absolutely. No question about it. I mean, here I was as a little kid [running], and then I went into high school and I loved writing about it as well. So, I went and asked if I could write for the high school newspaper—nobody was covering sports. At about 13, I became the high school sports editor of the paper. So that launched a journalism career. And I was reading J. D. Salinger and I began signing K. V. Switzer to all my work, like E. E. Cummings or T. S. Eliot and that launched a desire to become a sports journalist. And I thought, ‘Well, I'll become a sports journalist because I won't be able to play sports because I'm a girl, but I can write about it, so I'm close to it.’ And indeed, what happened is that the writing helped me become a writer, a journalist, a sports marketer, TV broadcaster. It all paid off. But it was the confidence to do it. It was the confidence to put my hand up and say, ‘I'll write, I'll do it.’ And that's the difference. But I don't think I would've had the courage to do that if I hadn't been running a mile a day.
TFR: Yeah, that's amazing. What advice would you have for women who just haven't found the confidence, or they haven't quite found the activity that gives them that same confidence?
Kathrine: That’s the reason why I founded 261 Fearless, named after the bib number [in the 1967 Boston Marathon]. Because most women find it very, very difficult to take the first step... So, we founded 261 Fearless to create a friendly community club. Just one hour a week, come out and walk or run with us. That's as simple as that—put one foot in front of the other. And when you get there and you meet all these women and you have so much fun and you're not competitive, you're not judgmental. You say, ‘Hey, this is cool.’ And suddenly when you start moving, you have that sense of empowerment. So many of them come rushing back saying, ‘Oh my God, I did a mile. I can't believe it. I did a mile without stopping.’ And it translates, they start saying, ‘Well, if I did one mile, I can run two. Oh, I can run that 5k that's in my neighborhood.’ And then they say, ‘Wait a minute, I feel so good.’ And then they start getting up at five in the morning while the kids are asleep, and they get their run in. And no matter how shitty the rest of the day is, they feel great about their run that morning, and maybe it's dark and snowy or rainy, but they meet their buddy down the corner of the block and off they go together. Or maybe they do it alone, but they do it and they're not looking to be Olympic athletes. They're looking because they want that empowerment hit. And it's very, very powerful. At 261, we're backing it up now with educational programs and offering opportunities to be a club leader to build your club, even create a business. We're very, very excited about it. But at some point, you have to take that first step and often you can't do it alone.
TFR: That's awesome. Very nice. When you were running marathons and people told you, you couldn't run 26.2 because women physically couldn't, do you recall a specific moment where you started to doubt yourself, and then, how did you get out of that mindset?
Kathrine: I hate to tell you this. I never doubted myself. And the reason is because, once I did the first mile and I felt so good and then I got it up to three miles, and then I met the volunteer coach at Syracuse University who was a university mailman. He wasn't a coach. He was a volunteer, but he would come out and train with the cross-country team. And he was 50. I was 19. And he told me, he started jogging with me, and he told me about this thing called the marathon. And I just became more and more fascinated with it. And our mileage began increasing. And, then it was five miles and then it was 8, then it was 10, 12. And then it got very exciting. And I told him I wanted to run a marathon. He said, ‘No, women can’t do it.’ And I said that's ridiculous. I said, ‘Women have run throughout history.’ And he said, ‘No, no, no, no, they haven't.’ And I said, ‘Yes, they have.’ And we argued. And he didn't believe that, for instance, in Boston in 1966, Roberta Gib, actually jumped out of the bushes and ran the race. He said, ‘She didn't do that.’ I said, ‘She did do that.’ And finally, he said, ‘Look, if you prove to me in practice that you could do a marathon and you'd have to show me,’ but he said, ‘I'd even take you to Boston.’
But I never had any doubt because each mile was actually very, very fascinating. And I'll never forget, oddly enough, it was 11 miles. And I did 11 miles—that sounds so much further than like nine or 10, you know? And I remember coming in, I was sitting on the steps of my dorm and I was like, you know, hot damn, I did that.
TFR: I love that. So, the name of the newsletter, The Final Rep, came up because one of my favorite moments of a workout is when you're making that final push in running to the finish line, gearing up for those last 800 meters or whatever it is that you need to get through to get to the finish. And then you get to the finish and you have that big exhale of gratitude and relief and pride. Can you talk a little bit about the feeling that you get when you cross a marathon finish line—whether that's a big race, like your first one, or when you won New York or even just the everyday run—what that feeling is like for you?
Kathrine: Yeah. First of all, when I saw that the name of the newsletter was The Final Rep, I was thinking of it in terms of repetitions, intervals, and how important and essential they are to improvement in speed. And how many times I've done hundreds and hundreds of them. And it is a tough, tough workout to do serious repetitions because you're always uncomfortable. It's the only way to push beyond. And so, I was thinking, there were many, many nights alone in the dark, on a high school track, eight o'clock at night, I'd be out there in the cold running, let's say, 24 100s. That is a very, very tough workout, especially alone. And I would count it down three, two, and then I get to The Final Rep, and I would say, ‘You can do this. You are fabulous. Go.’ And I'd do it. And then I would cross the finish line. And I would say, ‘You beauty!’ And [pats back] ‘You're great.’
Even getting ready for the Boston marathon again at 70 in 2017—that required sometimes five-hour runs because I didn't know how long it was going to take me. So I said, five hours, if I can't do it in five hours, I better go home. So, I would do some other five-hour runs on those [points camera to the beautiful New Zealand mountains in the background], I don't know if you could see the mountains beyond, up there in those hills. And I would come in from a run from those and I'd go 'Nailed that, beauty.'
But crossing the finish line in a marathon, the only time I felt overwhelmingly like that was twice. Because when I won New York, it was so, so hot. It was torturous. And it was the most painful marathon I ever ran from that point of view, probably the hardest race I ever ran. And Boston in '67 crossing the finish line was both anticlimactic because everything else had happened at that point. It was cold. It was dreary. There's hardly anybody there. And also, I knew I was going to have to meet these irascible journalists again. So that was both anticlimactic and something I really wasn't looking forward to, although I said, ‘Okay, we did it. We finished.’
In 1975, though, when I ran my 2:51 at Boston, it was amazing because the roads just kept coming to me. It was like, you bring it to me. The treadmill's going faster and faster, and I'm running it faster and faster. It was just was an exceptional, exceptional time of mind-body connection. And it was just otherworldly. And it was, up to that point, I had run a 3:01 best, but I knew that I was better than a 3:01 when I did it. But going from 3:01 to 2:51 is just stratospheric. So that was an amazing experience.
And then the only other time was in 2017, everything came together, and it was the realization that in 1967, 50 years before, I was the only woman wearing a bib number and now I was surrounded by 13,500 women wearing a bib number. Fighting for equality, now the race was at last 50/50 on that day. Well, 49/51, but who's counting, 50/50. I was surrounded by 125 women who had signed up to run with me for 261 Fearless. And the money they raised, essentially launched our program globally, which was really, really important. And each mile got faster. It got better. I stopped 13 times, did eight interviews, hugged every kid, drank at the water stations. And my time was still only 24 minutes slower than it was when I was 20. So, the sense of being older, you know I was grateful for my health, but also the sense of being older and still being on the top of my game was a fabulous feeling. And I guess the best thing of all was at the finish line, my husband, who I adore was waiting for me. It was a total surprise because he was working in the press room. I didn't think he could get out there in time. And we had this big kiss at the finish line, just like you always dream of doing, you know, the romantic ending. It was the happiest day of my life and it all just come together. And The Final Rep, I was aware of it. At the top of Boylston street, looking down at the finish line, I turned to Rosie, one of my best friends who was running with me and she's crying and I'm saying, ‘Okay, Rosie, just be careful, let's just not trip at this point. But I think we're going to just enjoy these last 385 yards.’
TFR: Oh, that's great. I love that story. It sounds like a fairy tale with the ending.
Kathrine: It was like a fairy tale. And as I say, it turned out to be the happiest day of my life. I mean, everything came together: love, training, age, friendship, vision, passion. And then sheer athleticism. I mean, I felt really like a hot ticket, you know?
TFR: Yeah. That's amazing that the times were so close from when you were 20 to 70 too. That’s really amazing. And I did catch the anecdote you had on your site about not noticing Heartbreak Hill the first time. Did you notice it that time?
Kathrine: Oh yeah. I couldn't wait to get up, cause there's always a guy up there who's telling you that you did it, you got to the top of Heartbreak Hill and we got to the top of Heartbreak Hill and there was a cameraman running alongside me and I said, ‘okay, we're going to do an interview right now,’ and I did this whole piece on top of Heartbreak Hill.
TFR: I love that. And that's amazing that you were surrounded by women too. What did that mean to you?
Kathrine: Oh, it was fantastic. I mean, I was surrounded by women in the race as well, not just 261 women. But women would come by and say, ‘Oh my God, Kathrine, I can't believe it's you.’ They would take a selfie as they were running and then along the way, there were all hundreds of people, totally unknown to me, were holding up big signs, saying ‘261,’ ‘Go Kathrine,’ ‘Women's equality.’ And a lot of women would see me coming and hold up their little girls. And they'd say, ‘Look at my daughter and she's going to be great,’ and I'd come over and give her a hug and we'd all be sweaty and crying. It was great.
TFR: That sounds great. Very uplifting. I'm glad to hear it. So, I’ll ask my final question. Even from that first marathon you did to the Boston marathon we were just talking about, we've made strides in women in sports and women in running. I'm curious to hear what your hopes are for the future of women in sports and women in running and reaching even more equality there. What do you hope for the future?
Kathrine: First of all, I want to say that we've already achieved a social revolution with running cause we've changed millions of women's lives and men's, and that's been phenomenal with something that's easy, cheap, and accessible. But my hope for the future is that every woman on the planet, every woman has an opportunity to have a health and fitness experience through movement. And the negative part of this story is that with all the progress we've made—women's marathon in the Olympics, in running at least we have equal pay—most women in the world still live in a fearful situation. Whether it's religion or social convention, culture, race, poverty, all of these elements, we can overcome those things. We can. But we have to be determined to do it. We’re surrounded by social injustice. And everybody on the planet has an opportunity to make a contribution. I mean, it's as simple as reaching out to a little kid on the street and give them an attaboy or atta girl. It starts that way. So, I'm very hopeful actually. I think COVID has made me very hopeful. Because I think people are a lot nicer than they used to be. I think they're paying attention. I think that they're getting off their cell phones and realizing, ‘Hey, we got to clean up this planet. We got to take care of overpopulation. We've got to start getting very serious about this.’ Because the vaccination is not the end of the game here, you know, and it's actually going to be your generation. I mean, this is your defining moment.
Please note this interview was edited for clarity and length.